Why you can’t compare a Tesla Model 3 to any $35,000 car

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by Electric Jen, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    Which part of what he said in that article is not true? Why wouldn't you debunk if what he is saying is not true?
    I am not talking about his opinion part. I would like to know which part of what he presented as a fact is indeed not a fact.
    I am not interested in his opinion. I am only interested in numbers and facts from that article. If you know any of them is incorrect you should absolutely need to point them out to me.
     
  2. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Like I said, I would have to rewrite the whole article, @Astranger , and I don't have the energy to do so.
    The biggest issue is that the way the article is written, and mostly what it leaves out, give you the impression stuff is a fact when we don't know that it is. Because it focuses of what we know today about the cars T≡SLA is only starting with, it does not tell us everything about what will be offered over time, on the base (i.e. non Premium) or even on all Model 3s as things will change over time. That is the T≡SLA way as we know from S & X

    Couple of examples:
    - it says you need to pay 5 grand to get cruise control; that is today. As I said we don't know whether or not CC will be standard. Santos does not say that.
    - when he writes you haven't seen a 44k or 49k car yet because T≡SLA has not produced any black car, with or without Premium package and with 18'' wheels, that is not true as I remember release candidates in that configuration and in any case they will... within a few months. Heck, within a few months, they will produce a $35k car, i.e. a base range, black Model 3 without any other option, and with 18'' wheels because there will be some people who absolutely want one, and can't afford to pay more so will go with less frills!
    - the whole section around the acceleration not being what it is because of the foot difference resulting in 0.4 sec. higher times is grotesque... Even if the times were 5.5 and 6 seconds, that is still awesome in this segment, fun to experience (at times) and, most importantly does not matter at all to most!
    - he expresses doubt about total # of reservations because of quoted deposits in 1Q16 (before the first reveal??) and talks about risk of cannibalization...
    Yet T≡SLA reported (in my view an underquoted) net level of ~450k cars after ~60k cancellations yet also 1,800 new reservations per day since 7/28.
    There is still $15-20k price difference between a fully loaded Model 3 and the cheapest Model S with less to no options... cannibalization? Barely...
    - Finally, he quotes a 10% margin (where does he get that from?) when T≡SLA announced 20-25%...?

    See what I mean about disingenuous...? ;)

    Hope this helps. Gotta go now.
     
  3. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    #23 Astranger, Aug 12, 2017 at 1:05 PM
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017 at 1:20 PM
    [

    Couple of examples:
    - it says you need to pay 5 grand to get cruise control; that is today. As I said we don't know whether or not CC will be standard. Santos does not say that.

    So, it is true as of today. Of course we don't know what will happen in the future, but we know this is the case at the moment.
    Are you saying he HAS TO state that things could change more favorably??

    - when he writes you haven't seen a 44k or 49k car yet because T≡SLA has not produced any black car, with or without Premium package and with 18'' wheels, that is not true as I remember release candidates in that configuration and in any case they will... within a few months. Heck, within a few months, they will produce a $35k car, i.e. a base range, black Model 3 without any other option, and with 18'' wheels because there will be some people who absolutely want one, and can't afford to pay more so will go with less frills!

    Again, it is true that you haven't seen the production version of cars at those prices. I am sure they will produce them, but they haven't.
    He is just saying that if you are planning on buying $35000 version you shouldn't expect to see the sames cars you have seen so far. What's so disingenuous about that?

    - the whole section around the acceleration not being what it is because of the foot difference resulting in 0.4 sec. higher times is grotesque... Even if the times were 5.5 and 6 seconds, that is still awesome in this segment, fun to experience (at times) and, most importantly does not matter at all to most!

    If it doesn't matter to most and 6 seconds is just fine, which I agree, don't you think reporting the 0-60 time with a foot roll-out instead of actual 0-60 is a little bit disingenuous? He is telling us the real numbers and TESLA isn't. I also had issues with the fact they didn't want to give us the exact specs of batteries.

    - he expresses doubt about total # of reservations because of quoted deposits in 1Q16 (before the first reveal??) and talks about risk of cannibalization...
    Yet T≡SLA reported (in my view an underquoted) net level of ~450k cars after ~60k cancellations yet also 1,800 new reservations per day since 7/28.
    There is still $15-20k price difference between a fully loaded Model 3 and the cheapest Model S with less to no options... cannibalization? Barely...
    - Finally, he quotes a 10% margin (where does he get that from?) when T≡SLA announced 20-25%...?


    These are basically his speculation and personal opinion that I am not really interested in.

    See what I mean about disingenuous...? ;)

    I think you as an obvious fan of Tesla are trying to read too much into it. I just take the information I need and dump the rest.
    I don't have problem as long as what he meant to present as facts are facts.
     
  4. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    I won't deny that I am a fan of T≡SLA, yet more than anything I like objective reporting. This simply wasn't it.
    Absolutely. Not doing it - and willingly so, I'm sure - creates a perception of fault which is not innocent.
    Remember where we started. Will this car have CC. You said you had a source that said that it didn't. None of us know that today.
    My main point remains he did not establish that yet the very fact it got your attention and you relayed it here is the exact illustration of the devious impact of that kind of journalism.

    Having said that, this T≡SLA fan will be peeved if the standard car does not have CC!! ;)
     
  5. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    That's right. It focuses on what we know today. It does not tell us things that may be offered over time in the future because we don't know what those things will be. Heck, Even Tesla themselves are not telling us everything, so why would you expect him to tell us everything he doesn't know about?
     
  6. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    #26 Astranger, Aug 13, 2017 at 11:56 AM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017 at 12:09 PM

    Well, I don't agree with that. He does not have the obligation to add some speculation that things might be actually better than what we know now. You basically want him to add some positive spin to the current situation, so it doesn't sound too bad as it is. Meanwhile, you can't stand any negative speculations on Telsa by anyone it seems.

    You are so willing to forgive Tesla's report about 0-60 time when they actually reported false information for that to be not 'that' important. But you are accusing this person of not being innocent for not mentioning a possible positive changes that may or may not happen in the future.

    Anyway, we will find out soon enough hopefully although I think we should have known these things by now.
     
  7. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    That is fine. That is your right.
    Not on everything - I am on record for having many times expressed my dissent on non including a HUD, even if optional, when targeted ICE cars in the entry luxury segment have had that (albeit at a notable premium) for close to a decade...
    Or when they were so keen to anti-sell Model 3 that they issued unbelievably low data on frunk & trunk storage space, since then corrected after the delivery event...
    I am not blind nor naive... just don't like snake journalism...
    Agree and that will be good. Suggest we leave this open yet courteous exchange there (thx for that by the way! :))
     
  8. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    I wanted Model 3 as much as any other Tesla fans who have reservations. I am not here to bash Tesla. Maybe I am just not as forgiving as most of Tesla fans seem to be. I think they should be a little more critical and pushy rather than accepting whatever Tesla decides to offer. Being a Tesla or EV isn't good enough reason for me to buy one.
     
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  9. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Thanks. I am totally on your side on that.

    I am actually really ok with us reservation holders or owners to provide T≡SLA constructive feedback on areas for improvement rather than snarky journalists feeding half truth or downright bashing T≡SLA - and trust you know lots out there do!! - because most of them have a hidden agenda... :rolleyes:
     
  10. Linedoggy

    Linedoggy New Member

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    I just wonder, by the time the last of the reservation holders get their Model 3 will it be a 2019 year model and will it have gone through some cosmetic exterior changes, or will the 2019 look the same as a 2017.

    Most of the big automotive companies make changes to their models to distinguish it from one year to the next
     
  11. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Don't expect too many exterior changes yet lots of software improvements & other optional stuff on the inside (most of it hidden!)
     
  12. Linedoggy

    Linedoggy New Member

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    At least change the front fascia,...please , I think that's the ugliest part of this wonderful looking car.......the front fascia reminds me of some sort of marine mammal, not sure which one yet.
     
  13. Linedoggy

    Linedoggy New Member

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    I think I found the mammal images (1).jpg images.jpg images.jpg images.jpg
     
  14. ianstuart

    ianstuart New Member

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    #34 ianstuart, Aug 15, 2017 at 11:59 AM
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2017 at 12:10 PM
    Where do you get the figure of $70K from? You seem to have overstated the maximum by over $10K. And as for leather seats being so wonderful: I had an S series Mercedes for twenty five years! with plastic (MBtex) perforated seats that were MORE comfortable than my wife's leather seats and virtually indestructible. As for all the uproar about paying for extras, (especially the paint) I would point out that BMW charges a thousand dollars extra for ANY metallic paint and the Ford F150 ranges in price from $25K to $65K according to the extras. Oh, and rather disingenuous of the author of the article not to mention the federal and state tax credits that will cut $10K off the price for the first several hundred thousand customers (the federal tax credit DOESN'T disappear once sales hit 200K!)
     
  15. Astranger

    Astranger New Member

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    #35 Astranger, Aug 15, 2017 at 2:31 PM
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017 at 2:38 PM

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