Tesla shares Supercharger V3 details, critiques Porsche's 350 kW chargers

Discussion in 'In the News' started by simonalvarez0987, May 2, 2018.

  1. simonalvarez0987

    simonalvarez0987 Active Member

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    #1 simonalvarez0987, May 2, 2018
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    Tesla CEO Elon Musk and CTO JB Straubel revealed the first details of the company’s upcoming Supercharger V3 network during the company’s recently conducted first-quarter earnings call. The discussion about the next-generation charging stations came as a response to a question addressing Porsche’s 350 kW IONITY network, which is set to outgun Tesla’s 120 kW Superchargers when it gets fully rolled out.

    According to Musk, Tesla will introduce an improved version of its Superchargers, though they would not be along the same specs as Porsche’s 350 kW stations.  

    “We’re definitely going to be improving our Supercharger’s technology. The thing about a 350 kW charger is that it doesn’t actually make a ton of sense, unless you got a monster battery pack or have like a crazy high C rating… We think 350 kW for a single car; you’re gonna frag the battery pack if you do that. You cannot charge a high-energy battery pack at that rate, unless it’s a very high kW battery pack. So, (for us), something along the couple of hundred, 200-250 kW, maybe.”

    Musk’s statements were backed up with an explanation from Tesla CTO JB Straubel, who noted that the levels of power for Supercharger V3 involve a considerable amount of balancing. Straubel further stated that Tesla could make a 300-400 kW Supercharger, but such a system would not be a useful tradeoff for the company’s consumer base.

    “That’s definitely sort of the power level that we’ve discussed and explored. Some of it also comes down to an optimization around utility versus cost, and tradeoffs in the car itself. There is a tradeoff, fundamentally, between charge speed and essentially range, and cost of the battery. We look at that pretty carefully. We understand the tradeoff. We could design cells and a pack that could charge at, you know, faster than 300-400 kW, but it’s not a very useful tradeoff to the customer.”

    Elon Musk also provided a real-world explanation that differentiates Tesla’s Supercharger V3 to Porsche’s 350 kW IONITY network.

    “Energy is range, and power is your peak acceleration, the rate in which you consume energy. It’s more important to have long range than it is to have a super fast charge time. You can sort of think about this in the devices that you use. Would you rather have a cellphone that charges in 5 minutes or 10 minutes, but only lasted 2 hours. Or, if you’d like a cellphone that can last two days, and maybe takes an hour to charge?”

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    Musk also discussed the idea of opening the Supercharger network to other electric car makers. According to the CEO, the Superchargers are not a “walled garden,” and that Tesla would be happy to partner with other players in the EV industry. So far, however, Musk noted that no automaker had approached Tesla about a possible Supercharger partnership.

    “We’ve always said that this is not intended to be a walled garden, and we’re happy to support other automakers and let them use our Supercharger stations. They would just need to pay, you know, share the costs proportionate to their vehicle usage, and they would need to be able to accept our charge rate or at least our connector, at least have an adapter to our connector. This is something that we are very open to, but so far, none of the other car makers have wanted to do this. It’s not because of opposition from us. This is not a walled garden.”

    As we noted in a previous report, a key difference between Tesla’s Supercharger and Porsche’s IONITY network lies in the rates the companies demand for each service. Tesla has maintained that the Superchargers are not being built for profit, while Porsche deputy chairman of the executive board Lutz Meschke noted that using the IONITY network would roughly cost the same as filling up an ICE vehicle with gasoline.

    Article: Tesla shares Supercharger V3 details, critiques Porsche's 350 kW chargers
     
  2. patrick-gilhard

    patrick-gilhard New Member

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    When you think about it on current up to 100kWh batteries in 400 Volts format, that are capped 1.2C hence 120kW and each SC v2 charger is shared across 2 x SC stalls, all you need to better serve them is to charge at 240kW per SC v3 assumed still shared across 2 x stalls, so each can get its maxi 120kW at any time, none delaying the other as today. So fair.
    What he did not comment is if the Tesla Truck Megachargers are meant to be opened to other Tesla cars than just the Trucks, like to Tesla Roadster2 with its monster 200kWh battery pack, or next gen Model S & X in v2 version that should get up to the same 200kWh sooner or later. Such packs at same 1.2C as today could charge at 240kW each. Plus these 2X larger batteries could easily be layed out for 800 Volts, and with slightly better C levels they could be stretched to 350kW (Only 1.75C is required at 200kWh capacity to charge at 350kW) and eventually offer a Porsche HPC350 compatibility for charging. The Mega charger port is suspected to be made of 4 very thick pairs of DC-only pins, expected to provide up to # 350kW per pair too... Hence my interest here.
     
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  3. Milan B

    Milan B Member

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    I agree with Elon. charging should be open to all. this will allow more superchargers to be built and while it might not be a revenue stream for tesla owners, it can be one for other brands.
     
  4. ThosEM

    ThosEM Member

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    All this gives rise to the question of what is the first principles limit on charging? It sounds like the physical limit (~1.2 C) reflects the amount of time required for the charging power to go into chemical energy storage rather than into thermal energy, which involves the migration time for ion transport in the electrolyte, I guess. We could perhaps use higher charging rates if sufficient cooling is supplied to prevent thermal damage, but at some point, efficiency of energy storage drops to the point of diminishing or negative returns. Perhaps that point is 1.2C. I would love to see a treatise on these considerations, but even Battery University avoids the nitty gritty: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/ultra_fast_chargers
     
  5. robinrhaney

    robinrhaney Member

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    Question for Ionity and Porsche. Electricity the same price as gasoline where? In the US, maybe. In Europe, where gasoline is two to three times more expensive, no chance at all. People will not pay it, and politicians would not allow the superprofits it realised. They would just tax them back to \"normal\", as they do with gasoline.
     
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  6. aquadoggie

    aquadoggie Member

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    The same price as ICE? Yeah no. Good luck with that Porsche.
     
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  7. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    The (excuse the pun) "current" supercharger network @ 110kW is too slow...

    I want to fill up just like @ A gas station... and this should be accomplished from 1/4 charge to 100% in less than 30 minutes.. NOT a hour and 10..

    What one gets on a long drive is a bunch of 45-60 minute charges that aren't convenient while on a semi regional long drive..

    A typical 600 mile drive to the Pennsylvania mountains adds like 3 hours of time when the 90kw battery discharges to 20% @ around 200 +/-miles driving 70-80 mph w/accessories on...

    No way that competes with ICE.

    I end up using my 42mpg hybrid for these trips and usually make no stops at all for fuel. Or just one and finish the drive with 3/4trs of a tank...
     
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  8. gerhard.hauer57

    gerhard.hauer57 New Member

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    If you want to charge FAST and want to charge to „100“ you need to reconsider your reading skills.
     
  9. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Joe, I agreed with your post specifically thanks to this paragraph above.
    That’s been my experience exactly on the 650 miles drive from Belgium to our new home in SW France.

    However, while I noted the longer time, I arrived much less tired than when I would have done the same in a fossil car previously... I attribute this largely to the more numerous, longer stops and of course the comfort of AP1... Hence, to some extent, the move to a T≡SLA for ‘long’ distance travel for me requires just a bit of a mindset change... No return to ICE for me... ;)

    Now, would I not like to be able to limit my 20-85% charging time to 20-30’, maybe... yet in the end it would only save me an hour on such a trip. At the scale of a lifetime... not sure it matters to me that much any longer... (semi-retiree mentality possibly! :D)
     
  10. omgmrtea

    omgmrtea New Member

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    That whole story just shows that Elon is really about doing the right thing for our planet, while Porsche is just about making money.
     
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  11. Emery

    Emery New Member

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    Will current Tesla owners be able to use Superchargers V3 at the higher max speed?
     
  12. Milan B

    Milan B Member

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    first assumption i would make is that we would have to pay to use it. Tesla has always said it does not want to create a profit center with the superchargers. no other manufacturer has said this. so lets assume Porsche will surely charge a premium (no pun intended).

    second assumption is that supercharging beyond what is already available might damage the battery. i would rather spend an extra 15 minutes per charge then have to spend $15K on a new battery every year or two.

    Last assumption is that Tesla is building charging stations all the time. i dont see this slowing down. as more stations become available it should be considerably faster and easier to charge up.
     
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