Tesla Model 3 "Phantom Drain" compared to Model S and Model X

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by simonalvarez0987, Jun 10, 2018.

  1. simonalvarez0987

    simonalvarez0987 Active Member

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    Tesla Model 3 currently leads the pack in terms of having the highest parasitic battery drain, or better known as “Phantom Drain”, over Tesla’s more mature Model S and Model X.

    Phantom Drain represents the amount of charge an electric vehicle loses when it is not being driven or operated by a person, similar to how smartphones lose battery power while in standby mode. In the case of Tesla vehicles, the battery discharges while the car is not being driven in order to provide power to its onboard electronics and auxiliary functions, such as the battery’s thermal management system. According to the Model 3 Owners Guide, the vehicle, on average, should discharge at a rate of around 1% per day, similar to Tesla’s quotes for the Model S and Model X’s battery drain levels.

    However, looking at data collected through TezLab, a popular app among the Tesla owners community that tracks vehicle power usage, efficiency, and other statistics, Ben Sullins of the Teslanomics YouTube channel was able to see a significantly larger discharge rate from the Model 3. Ben was also able to compare the differences in vampire drain between the 3,855 Model S, 1,281 Model X, and 362 Model 3 being sampled.

    Looking at the distribution of Phantom Drain between the Model S, Model 3 and Model X, it could be seen that around 60% of TezLab’s users experienced drain levels similar to Tesla’s quoted levels, which are on the 1-2% range per day. However, the differences between battery drain of the Model 3 and the Model S and X become more prominent over time. It’s worth noting that any parasitic losses as a result of TezLab connecting to the vehicle on a recurring basis may also be accounted for in the results being reported.

    [​IMG]Phantom Drain Info Graphic comparing Model S, Model 3, Model X [Credit: TezLab][​IMG]A comparison of the Phantom Drain levels of the Model 3, Model S, and Model X. [Credit: Ben Sullins/YouTube][​IMG]A comparison of the Phantom Drain levels of the Model 3, Model S, and Model X. [Credit: Ben Sullins/YouTube]

    As noted by Ben, the Model 3’s Phantom Drain levels exhibited volatility sometime during the November 2017 to January 2018 period. Ben’s recent real-world range test using his RWD Long Range Model 3 on an LA to Las Vegas route showed an even more drastic level of Phantom Drain, with his car losing almost 20 miles of range while he and his companion ate lunch. That’s a loss of more than 6% from the Model 3’s rated 310-mile range in the span of an hour.

    The drain levels of Model 3 owners using the TezLab app has started becoming more normalized, suggesting that the longer the vehicles are on the road, and as Tesla pushed firmware updates to its Model 3 fleet, the more consistent the cars’ drain levels became. Back in 2015, we covered a Model S that lost an average of 2.3% rated range per day while the vehicle was left in 16-degree Fahrenheit (-9 C) weather. 

    Overall, Tezlab’s data shows that the Model 3 is becoming more consistent as the maturity of the vehicle’s software is improving. Other features like its battery thermal management systems and its auxiliary functions are improving over time as well. These improvements are a trademark of Tesla, which is known as one of the only carmakers whose vehicles get better after they roll off the showrooms. 

    Watch Ben’s video on the Phantom Drain of the Model 3 compared to the Model S and Model X.

    ?t=35s

    Article: Tesla Model 3 "Phantom Drain" compared to Model S and Model X
     
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  2. t1apilotyahoo-com

    t1apilotyahoo-com New Member

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    I have seen the VAMPIRE Drain (HA!) lower on my Model 3 after software version 18.3 was introduced.
    That said, some folks on the Model 3 Owners Club Forum wer have drain issues recently....Deleting the TezLab app stopped their Drain. The problem is this app pings the car so often it is waking the car or keeping it awake resulting in energy use when not needed
     
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  3. Bone

    Bone New Member

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    Don’t know how the come to these values. My car uses a maximum of 4km per day which is less than 50% of the drain indicated by this study. Although I have the always online function switched off. Model s p100d
     
  4. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    AWESOME!

    For their money, M3 buyers will get a vehicle that bests the MS and MX in one department so far!

    Can't think of any other.

    Get a MS 75D and forget this .. you won't regret it.
     
  5. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    #5 joeski1, Jun 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
    Do you mean 1 kwhr per day??

    A TESLA Vehicle that sits unplugged loses about 3-6 miles per day in range @ 333 watts per mile with 1-2 kwhrs drain per 24 hrs.. even more in the cold.

    I've noted 3% of battery tales off in about 2 days before the charger kicks back in to recharge.

    I charge my MS 90D to 91% and two days later.. it is at 88% or less and auto charging again.

    3% of battery is 2.7 kwhrs in a 90.
     
  6. Bone

    Bone New Member

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    As I said I have the option always online off. Depending on the weather conditions it uses 0.8 kWh or even less 0.4 KWh per day. Try switching the option of. It makes the app connect to the car with a delay of 30 sec but the car uses much less energy.
     
  7. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    You are correct, I have my connectivity always on..

    I have android app and it is already buggy enough now ( though a bit better as of late) w/o adding another 30 seconds in delay.. I also had to cancel my home WIFI to vehicle feed as it interferes with TESLA's Slacker feed.

    Parasitic drain is of minimal concern to me.. my 10k solar array makes 14000 kwhrs a year or better...

    Those bugs won't eat that much of my energy blood ! Just a few mosquito bites but hey.. west nile IS deadly right?

    For some it may matter more.. but really.. is that an Energy Star rated feature like on my TV?

    WHAT gives?

    Best
     
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  8. People should consider cobalt, the element in the new nickel-cobalt-magnanese mixture, as stabilizing the battery source, which would include energy retention. Tesla had to find an affordable way to create a battery with less cobalt. Therefore, the \"phantom drain\" may be higher in Model 3s, because most or all Model S and Xs out there have more cobalt in the old battery mixture -- Tesla plans for all Models to have this new battery mixture, but I am unsure whether they have begun that yet.
     
  9. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    4-5 km per day, that’s about what I experience too... S85, 3.5 years old. Dream to drive, every day. ;)
     
  10. Kevinrf

    Kevinrf New Member

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    I have a serious issue with the units he used in the analysis. The analysis should have been done in kwh. The Model 3 will go further per kwh than the Models X and S. The same kwh power loss will result in the Model 3 losing more miles than the Model X and S.

    Ignoring the fact that lost mileage is a calculated result based on more than charge. It includes things like temperature, driving habits, different bias's built into each model's formulas.

    Let's also not ignore the multitude of different battery sizes in the Model X/S fleet.

    A proper analysis would have looked at the kwh's lost per day. Then based on the large sample size with different pack sizes in different models figured out parasitic battery losses and consumption while the car is "off".

    Nothing he said makes me think the car is losing more charge per day. To me, it is just showing similar charge losses have a larger impact on the predicted range of the more energy efficient Model 3. The presented numbers to the eye, without doing the math say the Model 3 is losing the same maybe less charge per day.
     
  11. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    Good point. We all know cobalt is getting more expensive. I believe I read they are using the new battery formula. I'm not sure the new cooling approach is being used in the M3 vehicle, but that may also have a negative effect on static drain.
     
  12. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    #12 joeski1, Jun 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    This makes parasitic drain even more important to the smaller battery size buyers as they have less to lose and in so doing lose even more respectively.
    .
    Unless the M3 can attain 250 watts or less consistantly per mile like the Chevy BOLT, nothing short of the 75Kw battery would be worth consideration to me just in range alone..

    The 270 miles range the 2016 MS 90D is rated for is barely enough regional driving range (within 100 miles one eway) @ 333 watts per mile for a comfortable roundtrip w/o an anxiety reducing mandatory 40 minute SC session built in somewhere along the way .. 3 tons doesn't roll easy w/o power!! & I've seen a few TESLA DOA alongside the highway just miles from a regional SC stop!! 75-80 mph on interstates or turnpikes literally eat that 333 per mile to pieces with AC or Heat on..I see r400 watts per mile or higher. .

    I agree.. stick to kwhrs.. uniform tests equal uniform results, though some participants have been known to cry foul, they have a very difficult time in demonstrating these alleged fouls.

    Remind anyone of a certain vehicle manufacturer and a few independent testing outfits?
     
  13. Kevinrf

    Kevinrf New Member

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    I would be a little careful here. You have two different things draining charge.

    1. Parasitic drain in the battery itself. This should be proportional to the size of the battery. If an 80 kwh rated battery is losing 1kwh over a set period of time, a 40 kwh rated battery should lose 1/2 kwh over the same period of time.

    2. Parasitic drain from the cars electronics in the off state. Regardless of the size of the battery in the model 3 this should be a constant. (I would argue, it is likely a similar value in the Model's X and S.). Depending on how large these drains are, it will be a larger issue in cars with the smaller battery option.

    That said, the Model 3's going further per kwh of charge are more sensitive to the parasitic losses.
     
  14. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    Well... 1-2 kwhrs a day certainly makes a bigger difference in a 75 than a 100 battery.. that's for sure.

    Now if the smaller vehicle achieves lower watts per mile, each kwhr lost means more in terms of lost actual range ...

    Say one often parks over night w/o a tether to power... after a few days of loss.. That vehicle must still have enough charge to get to a power tether

    NOT everyone can park tethered for endless days..

    That means even sitting.. their smaller battery is getting much less range each day w/o moving...

    While the vehicle might not be DOA.. the individual driving it in outlying areas will still have to be much more cognitive with regard to this depreciating range . And the distance to the next charge point with a comfortable reserve in mind..
     
  15. Leafsforever

    Leafsforever New Member

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    What is the online function?
     
  16. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    #16 joeski1, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    In your "controls" menu..

    Scroll to "displays"

    There you will find the "power management " feature .

    It will ask whether you'd like your vehicle in " energy saving " mode or NOT.. and on that page there is a small box to check off or on for connectivity as well.. always on.. or off...

    So one can set it a myriad of different ways

    Mine is set energy saving mode ON

    Connectivity : Always On

    I drop about 3 kwhrs every few days.. a bit more (4 or 5 ) every couple of days in colder weather..
     
  17. joeski1

    joeski1 Member

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    #17 joeski1, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    20180614_223656.jpg 20180614_223708.jpg
    I updated my reply as I am seated in my car right now.

    Here are the respective screens.

    Click on the "i" alongside the power management wording for a detailed explanation of what these settings will mean to your ability to access full online functionality for both your vehicle and your phone app connection to your vehicle as well as the applicable energy use or savings while the vehicle is parked for each respective setting..
     
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