Climate Change rant

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by JCJ007, Sep 27, 2018.

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  1. JCJ007

    JCJ007 New Member

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    Booyah! This is the beginning of the end and the share price is heading south I knew it would, but nobody would listen because I don't worship Elon or believe in EVs or carbon based climate change. It's going to a bumpy ride for you guys the SEC investigation is nothing wait till someone investigates Tesla's accounts tip of the iceberg. I don't have the money to short shares in Tesla but if I did I would.
     
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  2. michel.melinot

    michel.melinot New Member

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    Mate, just to be clear :
    Elon Musk is unbreakable.

    You see he'll find a way to get out troubles, even if he has to pay a lot of money.

    Tesla stock price ? It will skyrocket to 350-400$ when the awesome Q3 results are shared.
     
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  3. Not_Mandatory

    Not_Mandatory Member

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    ROFLMAO.

    I knew the regressive, knuckle-dragging, anti-science Trolls would come crawling out from under their rocks with this announcement! Thanks for the laugh!
     
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  4. JCJ007

    JCJ007 New Member

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    This is not the American dream it is the American Nightmare, Elon is not an inventor he is a marketing guy a salesman a showman, he is certainly not the new messiah and he is not saving the world and people this is not a religion. Like De Lorean he has a dream to build an amazing car which has production issues and is heavily government subsidised neither John nor Elon are bad people but they were not great businessmen and I fear like John before him Elon's empire will end in disaster. Elon's companies have never made money and never will, Elon is great at the spin and magic he whips up but like the Wizard of OZ there is not as much going on behind the curtain as you would like to think. Tesla is running on a series of high stakes gambles, money and time is running out. My triumphalism was maybe too much but understandable in a sea of Elon is god, the saviour of humanity, unbreakable, a genius, he can do no wrong, he is the greatest. Step back a moment folks this type of unflinching support is the sign you are in a religion or a cult. Model 3 has allegations of Bait and Switch, he has taken deposits based on technology that doesn't yet exist, profit is a tertiary concern, Hyperloop is death in a tube. If it was all real it would be amazing but it isn't and the Utopia he is building may happen one day but it is unlikely to be by his hand. It's ok to admire a brand especially a car brand, cars are very emotive objects, but worship and blind faith is a big mistake. I am a Ford fan but Henry was flawed and brilliant at the same time no one is ever perfect even the great Elon.

    SEC laws are from a pre twitter era and have never changed I also fear without a drastic restructure or a buyout which is still possible Tesla is doomed the numbers simply don't add up.

    Statement, I hold and short no shares in Tesla, please do your own research I am not a financial advisor.
     
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  5. Hunch uk

    Hunch uk New Member

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    I guess the bottom line, if the companies all fail and even if you think he’s mainly hype, he has moved, space, EV, grid and integrated solar storage forward huge amounts and others will continue that progress. He’s shown what’s possible. So at the end of the day he’s kind of fulfilled his major life goals and as much as the oil industry /ICE manufactures and ULA may not like it, there’s no going back. Sure they can lobby and slow the process down, but they can’t stop it.
     
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  6. JohnA

    JohnA New Member

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    I'm always mystified by the statement 'I don't believe in EVs'.

    Clearly they exist. Many run on railways, and the electric motor is widely used in the maritime environment.

    Maybe the term is meant to be restricted to road vehicles. Again, these appear to exist.

    Perhaps it's a fundamental objection to the technology itself. Given a road going electric vehicle is basically an electric motor with a battery in place of an internal combustion engine, the objection must be due to the battery, given that the electric motor has been a clean, reliable workhorse for decades - it contains many fewer moving parts than an ICE, it is considerably longer lived and more efficient.

    So batteries. Price, performance, environmental issues and longevity have been challenges. These are being addressed. Back of the envelope ~200 kWhr for a car would seem to be the goal. 75 to 100 kWhr is where we're at.
     
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  7. JCJ007

    JCJ007 New Member

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    Yes electric cars do exist that is true and have done for over one hundred years look up Jamais Contente what I meant was I do not have confidence in the future of EVs all the issues you outline the problem with their proliferation causing their own extinction due to scarce materials and exhausting the worlds power generation capability, the longevity point defeats their target to reduce carbon based climate change. Fortunately carbon based climate change is a complete load of total nonsense its politically expedient. Don't worry folks I don't graze my knuckles on the floor in fact unlike Elon I am a real inventor there are more ways to produce clean powerful cars than batteries.

    The real inconvenient truth is Carbon Based climate change is the biggest, most expensive and powerful lie in history to question it is pure heresy those who do are pariahs. It was thought up in the 70s but doesn't corrulate to ice core data carbon dioxide does increase with a heating environment however it is a symptom not a cause as CO2 goes up following temperature change. Margaret Thatcher used it as a political tool in the 80s to decrease UK dependence on the coal industry the idea was expanded and taken on by others, so many governments benefit from the taxes this lie generates and a multi billion dollar industry of scientists, engineers and marketeers have capitalised on this massive lie the truth is irrelevant because too many people are making too much money out of it and perhaps its too late to admit that its all nonsense as too much is at stake. I advocate taking greater care to use our resources efficiently but lets not kid ourselves that driving an electric car or an ICE car actually makes any difference. Perhaps I should go with the flow and subscribe to the percieved wisdom but I can't a lie is a lie and therefore I can never accept it. It's a lonely position to take but I'll be proved right in the end.
     

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  8. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    @JCJ007 , your position on man-made carbon change may indeed be surprising to many here, though we do know it is shared by a minority of other people (some of them influential, regrettably IMHO - yet let’s not go there..!).

    I do not recommend a big debate on this topic on this forum from this point on and certainly not in this thread. Otherwise, I’ll move it off topic and close it down rapidly.

    While, as stated before, you are entitled to your views, I remain perplexed about your motives for spending time here if it’s mainly for EV bashing...
     
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  9. JCJ007

    JCJ007 New Member

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    I just felt it important to address that point I hope this is an open forum where views of both sides can be aired to be clear I think EVs are great I just don't know how they can be sustainable in larger numbers or whether they are the only way forward. On the topic of the SEC allegations it is very serious and begs a lot more questions about Elon and Tesla. My motive for being on here to spark debate its a bit dull when people are in violent agreement on everything and the unfolding Tesla story is absolutely compelling as I say the future is not written but two very different futures are possible, absolute catastrophic collapse or a way forward to which brings you the dreams you hope for. I think the best way forward is to remove Elon if these companies wish to have a bright future.
     
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  10. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Understood. Thank you.
    Yes, the forum is an open space and as long as the debate remains civil and in mutual respect, I don’t intervene.

    As for T≡SLA and Elon, I view it differently. While he cannot do it all, and though I am happy with the recent promotion of Jérôme Guillen to President of Automotive will greatly help, I think the removal of Elon as CEO would mean troubled times, at least short term, which the company does not need.
     
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  11. cygnusexwon

    cygnusexwon New Member

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    I find JCJ007 posts to be comical and entertaining, like when a child enters a room and starts talking nonsence when the adults are having an intelligent conversation.
     
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  12. mail2larryh

    mail2larryh Member

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    #12 mail2larryh, Sep 30, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
    I agree with many of your points and I think this whole man made climate change thing is a hoax of the greatest magnitude. Just reference the East Anglia Email fiasco as one example. I have always cringed when electric cars were linked to this climate fraud because it actually degrades them in the minds of many people. Electric cars make sense from the standpoint of efficiency, performance, quietness, ease of maintenance etc. Fewer components such as filters, oil etc need replacing resulting is less solid and liquid waste. Electric energy is transported over power lines or generated on site without the need or expense of the delivery of liquids to individual sites. Also air pollution can better be controlled at the point of energy production rather than the individual vehicle. Lets face facts the worlds resources are huge but finite. Electricity can be generated in many ways, some we probably aren't even aware of yet. If the electric car fails it will be because it wasn't marketed properly, not because of its present higher price.
     
  13. mail2larryh

    mail2larryh Member

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    Read my reply to JCI007. I am an ADULT whose been around for many decades and I agree with some of what the post in question says. Unlike too many people in these forums I can think for myself and I don't think this is the place to ridicule peoples opinions or how they express them. Acting grownup is a two way street.
     
  14. Not_Mandatory

    Not_Mandatory Member

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    Anyone who flatly denies the validity of human-linked climate change and calls it a hoax or some fantastic, world-spanning conspiracy is either a shill for the oil companies, or doesn't understand how the Scientific Principle and Scientific Consensus work. Hundreds and hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific studies over the past 5 decades prove that there is over 97% consensus among climate scientists in agreement that the data clearly indicates anthropogenic global warming. And nearly all of those in the tiny minority who take the opposing view are on the payroll of large oil companies or similar special interests, and, more importantly, none of them has a credible alternative hypothesis that stands up to peer review. The science is clear.

    And anyone who thinks some clandestine global Tree-Hugging branch of the Illuminati could somehow wrangle thousands of academics to support some colossal conspiracy theory to suppress the truth...has clearly never met a real scientist or been around academics. Nor do they understand motive and economics, since those with a financial interest in this issue have all the wealth and power on the OTHER side of the equation. Occum's Razor tells us that if one of either the "Earth Day Hippies" or the "5 of the Wealthiest Companies on the Planet" are on opposite sides of an issue and want to perpetrate a global conspiracy...the smart money says it ain't gonna be the long-haired sandal-wearing granola eaters who have the resources necessary to hide the truth from the entire world for decades.

    But there are also thousands of "flat earthers" out there, too...who, even in the 21st century, declare with brazen aplomb and fanatical zeal that the earth is flat, the moon landing was faked, and that all images of a spherical Earth taken from "orbit" are Photoshop trickery. (They can tell because of the fuzzy pixels, you see.)

    And then there are millions of folks who once read in a 3rd rate fantasy novel somewhere that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old. Good luck trying to convince them otherwise. Deliberate, willful ignorance is impervious to facts.

    Skepticism, in and of itself, is typically a good thing. But repeatedly denying objective reality because it doesn't meet your personal agenda is the opposite of science. And until actual scientists, preferably ones not on the payroll of a petrochemical company with a rather clear financial bias measured in the trillions of dollars, proffer an alternative hypothesis that matches the voluminous climate data gathered spanning millions of years of climate data points...then there's really nothing to "argue" about. Surprisingly, "La la la la I can't hear you la la la it's all a big hoax you sheeple!" is not a cogent rebuttal.

    Those folks and the crackpots who insist the Earth is flat and only a few thousand years old are all masters of self-delusion, and have taken to surrounding themselves will other deluded saps in order to create their idyllic little feedback-loop bubble...into which no facts or scientific method can penetrate.
     
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  15. mail2larryh

    mail2larryh Member

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    Then who are the "scientists" the East Anglia emails exposed? Why were they colluding to fudge data that worked against their theory. You cannot show me empirical proof that "man made" climate change exists because it doesn't exist. Nature itself creates climate change. Those "academics" you speak of are diploma to grave government grant hogs. Science is not consensus, it has to be proven by test and experiment whereas consensus can be and is purchased.
     
  16. Michael Russo

    Michael Russo Moderator

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    Ok, guys, interesting discussion yet, as I said, deviating significantly from topic of original thread and quickly evolving into an unresolvable difference of positions.
    Thread closed.
     
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